FimmRegular
I think Antinatalism is clearly an offshoot/branch of Gnosticism.
The Hatred of Life Itself
LumeinshinElder
Fimm idk if it would be, definitely not overtly at least.
When I worked in retail, I spoke to a lot of my colleagues that were about my age, none were religious at all but pretty much all of them didnt wanna have kids. Reasons ranged from 'idk i wanna live my life' to 'I dont want to bring more suffering to this world'. There were a couple that cited environmental reasons too, not wanting to harm the planet etc.
It was quite sad tbh.
- FimmRegular
Definitely not overtly. But the thing about Gnosticism is that you can have similar beliefs without even realizing it. Of course not all the reasons for Antinatalism are Gnostic, but some of the main ones definitely are. Mainly the idea that the world is a prison, and that you need to have special knowledge to realize it.
yukarihinataRegular
I would like to think that there is a loss of a sense of shared being. Shared ideals of beauty. Pride and inspiration about the future. Art is sonewhat self-pleasing in nature these days. There is not a sense that art has intrinsic beauty, but only subjective.
Not sure how much if it is a reflection of how life feels and thus we need art to be therapeutic or if it is that we let people who hate beauty define what is good art.
im just full of shit anyways
MurderbunnySettled-In
Golden
Without going too much into politics I think what we're going through is a large scale of the mouse utopia experiment. Too much comfort ends up being incredibly dysgenic for society, and very few people nowadays can deal with delayed gratification.
5 days later
GoldenSettled-In
Murderbunny
I wouldn't say "too much comfort" is causing problems, as that would imply living in a safe environment with electricity, running water, AC, and food to be somehow bad which is laughable and worship of suffering. I'm assuming you've done hard labor and are familiar with that lifestyle so you might have a different opinion. Living this comfortably is a virtue, the problem arises when you go from mastering a skill and building meaningful connections to purely consuming content, which is what our society struggles with. Our biggest desire is to exert our will on our environment, like building a house or creating a work of art, which when not met causes depression
- GoldenSettled-In
Gigachad
"We have been in cities as long as we have [...] not so much but most have adapted or just stay away."
You're right, cities themselves aren't inhumane. My intention was more so about having big cities without a coherent community, and a lot of the available food and water supplies being pretty unhealthy.
"The anti natalism is only really encouraged in certain areas and certain races..."
I was talking about the west in this thread
"Lack of traditional morals leads to hedonism..."
I don't believe that old ancient philosophy is infallible and that modern philosophy is a pile of rubbish, but I agree that it has value and is the base of our modern moral values. The lack of inherited morals and them being enforced morals instead of simply being thrown out words also leads to hyper-individualism which just leads to chaos, I agree
FantasyDedicated- Edited
and a lot of the available food and water supplies being pretty unhealthy
I will never see unhealthy food as an issue. I have lived on very little money per day and always had access to vegetables and fruits. Even when I lived in very bad neighborhoods I could always bike a few miles to a farmer's market or an actual grocery store. And if you know what to buy you can get a lot of stuff for very cheap.
Water is a different story, I have lived in places where the water was darn near undrinkable. That was suffering. I've had very bad tasting water, places where the water needed to be boiled for a few months before use, and I've had stinky sulfur water. it just sucks when you live with this.
- MurderbunnySettled-In
Golden I wouldn't say that comfort is in and of itself bad but I'll definitely claim that having all your needs met effortlessly is deleterious, both from an individual and societal standpoint. I think it's similar to how playing a game with cheatcodes on gets boring fast and ultimately cheapens the whole experience.
When you are pampered and have all of life's struggles removed you tend to become soft and selfish. I'd say unearned comfort is the key here, the comfort you have that came exclusively out of other people's struggles.
6 days later
gingermilkDedicated
one of the most comfortable eras of human history
And that is why people have more time to contemplate over the meaning of life and focus on their emotional and spiritual needs, yet most of the time these needs are not met due to the mechanical routines, atomization, individualist culture, decline of religion, etc.
current system
People who are financially stable lack motivation and energy after trying to sustain the current life to pursue anything besides short-term entertainment that would just pump the dopamine immediately, while those who are struggling to maintain a comfortable life no longer believe in the libertarian propaganda that hard work always provides rewards and are filled with resent towards those who are born in more fortunate circumstances.
But both groups have a common enemy, which is the "current system". What is the current system? Who controls the current system? How does the system work? People with different ideologies will give out different or even conflicting answers. We might not have a collective meaning, but at least we have a conceptual collective enemy to blame on, whether it is capitalism, cultural hegemony, fate, domination of technologies, or whatever. Individuals are believed to be powerless or trivial within the system, which only contributes more to the existential crisis.
anti-natalism and the rise in pessimism
They overlap a lot. Both of them also tend to be convinced that they are the logical and rational ones who can see through the reality while the inferior others are manufacturing false purposes to cope, but that might be more nihilistic than pessimistic. It is not surprising to see an outburst of these ideas when everyone reasons that we are living in a dystopia.
Or...it might just be those damn microplastics poisoning our brains.
GigachadDedicated
gingermilk And that is why people have more time to contemplate over the meaning of life and focus on their emotional and spiritual needs
I wanna argue about that. I disagree and agree. Yes, we have more time... technically. That time is also filled up with screens and let's be real here most people are not wikipediaing or actually learning or spending time on self improvement. It's mindless social media drivel, tik toks, youtube, and other inane propaganda that gets spewn out nowadays. I think the average peasent spent more time in philosophy and thought after hours than most of us do. What the hell else was there to do? Cards? Again?
I'm just arguing with you to get the thread going. All your points are very salient and have merit.
The rise in pessimism? Never forget the effects of absolute constant fear propaganda. I like the theory that MKUltra just thought the cia that the best way to control people was through trauma and fear. Like mankind hasnt already learned this lesson a thousand times over by now.
mechapSettled-In
We are preoccupied with the good life, and step by step are working toward a better life. What we do, as a conscious species, is set markers for ourselves. Once we reach one marker, we advance to the next, as if we were playing a board game we think will never end, despite the fact that it will, like it or not. And if you are too conscious of not liking it, then you may conceive of yourself as a biological paradox that cannot live with its consciousness and cannot live without it. And in so living and not living, you take your place with the undead and the human puppet.
For the rest of the earth’s organisms, existence is relatively uncomplicated. Their lives are about three things: survival, reproduction, death and nothing else. But we know too much to content ourselves with surviving, reproducing, dying and nothing else. We know we are alive and know we will die. We also know we will suffer during our lives before suffering, slowly or quickly, as we draw near to death. This is the knowledge we "enjoy" as the most intelligent organisms to gush from the womb of nature. And being so, we feel shortchanged if there is nothing else for us than to survive, reproduce, and die. We want there to be more to it than that, or to think there is. This is the tragedy: Consciousness has forced us into the paradoxical position of striving to be unself-conscious of what we are : hunks of spoiling flesh on disintegrating bones.
- LumeinshinElder
mechap I think you did a really good job summarising the rut people get themselves in. Its very easy for people to get lost like that, and then end up living a life that they are unhappy with, but still chasing that happiness in ways that end up with them in the same/worse spots happiness wise
damasSettled-In
Too much free time, too much freedom, too few interests and hobbies and obsessions. Paul Rosolie explained it well. When you're in the Amazon Rainforest, you have a routine that you must act on. You know that as soon as the fruits become ripe, they'll immediately be stolen. You know that you have to move your boat as soon as you know it's going to rain. Every moment of your life there is immediate act upon another. You don't have time to think, and the few moments you can relax are precious. Many cultures that replicate those behaviors tend to be happy and healthy.
To move on to the next day is to be distracted. To do something until the point of exhaustion, or until satisfaction. Perhaps a dull way of life, but one where days blend into one another and each day passes by quickly in the midst of work.
7 days later
AagoraopteraSettled-In
Have any of you ever read The Conspiracy Against the Human Race by Thomas Ligotti? It takes the stance that fundamentally, consciousness bad and everything surrounding our societies, our pursuits, etc, is all about sublimating or avoiding the awareness of the immense horror of life. It's fairly sophisticated, and I personally can't really disagree. The fact of life is pretty terrifying, but I waver on going full-on antinatalism because I do think there are some things worth living for. Also perhaps I'm a coward.
I think you guys broadly have the right of it, about having too much freedom and luxuries. A classic case of what we want actually being awful for us.
What do you think is the solution though, or coping mechanism?
For me, it's creative endeavours. A project that produces something, like painting, writing, singing, etc.
- MurderbunnySettled-In
agoraoptera What do you think is the solution though, or coping mechanism?
On a personal level, I'm just not affected by it. I've always wanted to have kids and raise a family, the crap the world throws at me never changed that. Although I've found it to be very hard to find girls on my demographics that are actually interested in the family way so I guess I'm affected by it after all lol
On a societal level, like I hate to identify with acceleracionism because those guys are usually couch potatoes that think they'll become a Fallout player character if things go boom but I think maybe things need to get worse before they get better. Not Mad Max bad, but al least bad enough for people to realize that a thing or ten need changed.
- GigachadDedicated
agoraoptera
The created being lashing out at the creator for its mere creation. I like the idea and will look into the book. What does it say about the evolutionary purpose of our elevated consciousness? Why are we like this and not the dogs? Why did we get the prefrontal and not whatever else?
The solution? I dunno. I claim stoicism or religion. Morals that say not to indulge at all or to overindulge if you do. Every man has a vice. Not every man is a slave to them.
AagoraopteraSettled-In
- Edited
Gigachad
Here's a couple of quotes from the book regarding the evolutionary side of things:
While consciousness may have had survivalist properties during an immemorial chapter of our evolution, it seems more lately to have become maladaptive, turning our self-awareness into a seditious agent working against us. ...We are the species that knows too much to content ourselves with merely surviving, reproducing, dying — and nothing else. We want there to be more to it than that, or to think there is. This is the tragedy: consciousness has forced us into the paradoxical position of uselessly striving to be something other than what we are — hunks of spoiling flesh on crumbling bones.
On the scientific side there is mismatch theory. This subsidiary concept of evolutionary psychology studies characteristics of our species that were once adaptive but have since become inimical to surviving in the environment we have made for ourselves.
That probably sums up the author's stance fairly compactly on that front.
Yeah, the capacity of discipline and restraint is almost 100% necessary for that sort of internal fulfilment that avoids creating a mouldering swamp in your internal mindscape. It's too easy to fall into the mindless indulgence.
- mechapSettled-In
Have any of you ever read The Conspiracy Against the Human Race by Thomas Ligotti?
Yes, I kind of retranscribed some ideas from the the book on my last post.
The fact of life is pretty terrifying, but I waver on going full-on antinatalism because I do think there are some things worth living for.
Suffering is a part of life by nature, and people are born against their will. Because of the quality of life, some types of people, in particular, simply have an interest in not being created and it typically raises the question of what responsibilities we believe we ought to have toward those who, as a result of our own actions, are both brought into existence and have existences that may be worthwhile but are inherently flawed.
Would egodeath be another solution to the predicament of consciousness ?
Gigachad
It appears that conscious mental processes provide extremely flexible and adaptable forms of control. Although unconscious automatic processes can be incredibly quick and effective, they frequently operate in ways that are fixed and predetermined rather than those that involve conscious self-awareness.
These processes trade off their customized versatility for slowness and laboriousness, as opposed to the fluid rapidity of automatic unconscious mental operations (which is precisely why humans still have natural instincts along with our consciousness).
In addition to a greater sense of self-awareness, consciousness may also entail a deeper comprehension of the mental states of other sentient beings, especially those of members of one's social group: creatures who are conscious but understand what it is to have such states are aware of both their own and other people's awareness of such states.
This increase in our mutual understanding of each other's thoughts may enable us to interact and communicate in more sophisticated ways, and from the perspective of evolution, it may therefore be a biological trait.
However, nature has demonstrated that unconscious organisms, like ants, are capable of creating sophisticated social structures without being conscious of themselves...
AagoraopteraSettled-In
Yes, I kind of retranscribed some ideas from the the book on my last post.
That's what I get for skimming the thread, I see it now durr.
I think I lean towards the "simply have an interest in not being created", or perhaps "have no interest in being created". I recognise it's a paradoxical stance, since obviously if you weren't created you can't really have a preference, and it's all post-hoc reasoning/justification/evaluation. Existence is something that can only be judged by those who have existed, or something to that effect. But humans have no real problem with holding contradictory stances.
Ego-death... I find that as terrifying and as equal to regular old death. It's not a solution for me, since I don't really see it as being meaningfully different from regular death. It sort of has been an approach by some religions, hasn't it? The annihilation of earthly desires is not so far off from self-annihilation. And attempting to become One with a higher being (whether that is a Godhead, the Universe or a vast sea of consciousness) is ego-death by sublimation.
But to a lesser degree, a regular form of ego-death that humans undertake does provide sufficient purpose to counter or mask the pain of conscious existence. I'm referring to when humans shed individual identity for group identity, or adopting a tribalistic mentality such as nationalism. To be clear, I'm not saying 'tribalistic' in a pejorative way, I mean it in the literal sense of thinking in terms of in-groups and out-groups. These kinds of communal approaches are usually fantastic for coping with consciousness, right? To subsume yourself within the nation, or to consider yourself as part of XYZ economic class, or to think of yourself as one of this race (and to elevate your in-group) – these provide a mental balm that uplifts people. And by subordinating yourself under these broader communal identities, you temporarily become 'avatars' of your group. A mild, temporary and reversible form of ego-death. Hm, I've never really thought of it in such terms, so my ideas here might be a little rough. Ego-baptism (since it is a temporary drowning of the self and its subsequent rebirth) as one of our major coping mechanisms does make sense to me. That's kinda neat.
The follow-up to that would be: for how long? How deeply? And we might attribute some of the wilder aspects of society to people having overly subsumed themselves within their group (eg, X supremacy, identity politics in general), or people who have gone too far in the other direction and rejected the group identities wholly (though by our nature as social animals, I don't think even hyper-individualists can escape taking on group identities wholly or for more than a brief period).